[kepler-dev] [Ptolemy] Conversion of Ptolemy II Tree to SVN this week
Christopher Brooks
cxh at eecs.berkeley.edu
Wed Jun 11 12:09:19 PDT 2008
Hi Thomas,
That could be the reason why, but I don't see it as a benefit. I
consider it to be excess generality that then may cause the problem
that Ed Willink has pointed out.
If I'm doing something dangerous and have no net connection, then
I'll back up files by hand. Otherwise, I'd rather have the disk
space. Again, this is a sign of the poor design and implementation of
svn.
If anyone has any insight into exactly why svn is such a disk hog,
I'm all ears.
That said, the conversion is complete!
I was able to check out a clean read/write Ptolemy tree using svn
with:
svn checkout svn+ssh://source.eecs.berkeley.edu/home/svn/chess/ptII/trunk
mv trunk ptII
cd ptII
export PTII=`pwd`
./configure
make
Read only access is available with:
svn checkout svn://source.eecs.berkeley.edu/chess/ptII/trunk
Eclipse instructions can be found at
$PTII/doc/coding/eclipse.htm
which is available as
http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptexternal/nightly/doc/coding/eclipse.htm
If you find bugs in eclipse.htm, please fix them.
I made a pass through http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptexternal, but
it needs work. Any takers?
I'm working on the nightly build and ChangeLog generation.
_Christopher
--------
Hi,
You mentioned that the SVN tree on client disk is much larger. Is
it becaus e when one checks out the SVN tree, a copy of the checked
out version is stor ed in the .svn directory, as well as a working
copy that the user sees and modifi es? I think this essentially
doubles the amount of disk usage with the benefit th at reverting a
local change need not query the server. Am I right?
Christopher Brooks wrote:
> I'm bringing the Ptolemy II cvs repository down and starting
> the conversion to svn.
>
> I've put up my notes about the conversion as
> http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptexternal/wiki/Main/Subversion
>
> Here's my manifesto.
>
> After a few years, it has come to my attention that everything old is
> new again, that is, tools are created that have only incremental
> improvements over the old tools and the new tools are often not as
> good as the old tools. Ant is the canonical case. The Ant website
> said it was created by someone who did not understand the make syntax.
> The first few releases of Ant did not have dependency analysis. Over
> time, Ant has become more useful and is now a defacto standard for
> developing new Java projects. However, the Ant syntax sucks, people
> still write XML files by hand. In this case, the Ant emperor has no
> clothes, or at least clothes similar to make.
>
> To quote GW Bush:
>
> "There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in
> Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me
> you can't get fooled again."
>
> This brings us to svn and getting fooled again. I feel that svn has
> one feature we need: it can operate over a http connection - if you
> are willing to decrease security by installing a web server and add
> complexity by managing accounts. This does not fit our current
> infrastructure, but could. Allowing the paying sponsors of CHESS and
> Ptolemy to easily access our code base is a good business reason to
> move forward. CVS cannot easily run over port 80, I tried and
> stateful firewalls see that the packets are not http packets and drop
> them.
>
> A second reason is that running svnsync could help make it easier
> for Kepler to mirror parts of the Ptolemy II tree.
>
> A third reason is that moving files in svn should preserve the
> change log.
>
> There are other reasons, but I think they are smoke and mirrors.
>
> There are plenty of downsides: svn is much more complex, much less
> secure and there are concerns about the Eclipse interface.
>
> If you look at this from Edward's point of view, he is trading
> something that works (cvs) for something that may have problems (svn).
> I understand why he would not want to become less productive.
>
> However, in really thinking about how people work, I realize that most
> developers pick up tools and then rarely drop them. I, for one have
> been using emacs for 20 years. This might not be good. I also use
> Eclipse, but not as much as I could. I was resistant to the
> conversion from SCCS to CVS, but after John Reekie started using
> CVS, I switched and after complaining, saw that CVS was good.
>
> Working in education, I feel that we need to expose students to
> current tools they will face in their future positions. SVN is tool
> that is out there and that students will either use or consider using.
> All along, I've said that if I was starting over, I would choose ant,
> maven, svn and Junit. I find it disturbing that Ed Willink, someone
> whose opinion I greatly value, was arguing that he was considering cvs
> for a new project. I find it disturbing because all along I thought
> that svn was better than cvs and now I'm starting to think that svn is
> just different and agreeing with Ed Willink and Edward. Svn has a
> couple of features we want and a bunch of downsides.
>
> However, I feel that as an educational institution, we also have the
> luxury of trying experiments.
>
> So, I'm moving ptII to svn and if it is really bad, I'll move us back
> to cvs. However, I'm going to work hard at svn. Even though it might
> not be the best use of my time for my efforts, I feel that it will
> help the community at large.
>
> I really appreciate everyone's feedback and the discussion about svn
> and ant. I also hope I illustrated the point that there is a tension
> between upgrading to the latest and greatest vs stability. I'm
> surprised at some of the downsides of svn, and feel that the svn
> developers attempted to fix parts of cvs but ended up fixing a few
> things at a rather great cost.
>
> _Christopher
>
> Christopher Brooks (cxh at eecs berkeley edu) University of California
> Chess Executive Director US Mail: 337 Cory Hall #177
4
> Programmer/Analyst Chess/Ptolemy/Trust Berkeley, CA 94720-1774
> ph: 510.643.9841 fax:510.642.2718 (office: 400A Cory)
> home: (F-Tu) 707.665.0131 (W-F) 510.655.5480
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------
>
> > Subversive is an Eclipse incubation project, so it may in due cours
e be
> > part of Eclipse. (It's almost at the bottom of the Downloads by Pro
ject
> > page.)
>
> Subversive will never be part of the Eclipse core. Eclipse is really
> moving the other direction, they even removed CVS from the core. Ther
e
> will likely be future efforts coming out of the Eclipse Packaging
> Project (EPP) where you can build or obtain Eclipse packages that
> include Subversion and/or CVS. Subclipse made a conscious decision to
> not make the Subclipse project part of Eclipse.org.
>
> > Subversive is better than Subclipse in that it automatically perfor
ms the
> > folder incoming updates following outgoing commits.
>
> I actually prefer how Subclipse handles this. Typically after a
> check-in I want to know what revision that was so I can reference it
> in the Trac ticket I'm closing , this makes it easy.
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Willink, Ed <Ed.Willink at thalesgroup.
com> w
> rote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > I started using Subversion a few months ago and only this morning w
as
> > arguing strongly
> > that a new project should start on CVS and not SVN.
> >
> > Subversive is an Eclipse incubation project, so it may in due cours
e be
> > part of Eclipse. (It's almost at the bottom of the Downloads by Pro
ject
> > page.)
> >
> > Subversive is better than Subclipse in that it automatically perfor
ms the
> > folder incoming updates following outgoing commits.
> >
> > I managed to install subversive on 3.4M7 following the install the
previo
> us
> > version
> > then the current version method. I haven't succeeded in getting Sub
versiv
> e
> > working
> > on 3.4RC1. Maybe I'm just stupid. Maybe the installation process is
evolv
> ing
> > out of sync with the documentation.
> >
> > I found both Subversive and Subclipse painful; I had to perform sig
nifica
> nt
> > repairs externally using TortoiseSVN. I even managed to get Subvers
ive to
> > delete a 10MB directory tree by mistake!
> >
> > Both Subversive and Subclipse are very dangerous for CVS users. In
CVS,
> > folders
> > do not have significant state so you can do what you like when you
like.
> In
> > SVN
> > you MUST commit folder state immediately after committing file stat
e. For
> > instance
> > if you add something to svn:ignore, you must commit the folder, oth
erwise
> > you
> > risk having an outgoing conflict between svn:ignore outgoing and ch
ild
> > folder
> > state incoming. Do not attempt to fix such a conflict with either o
f
> > Subclipse
> > or Subversive; you just dig a deeper hole. Use TortoiseSVN to get b
ack to
> > all green arrows.
> >
> > Unfortunately neither subclipse nor subversion have GUI state for f
older
> > state
> > comparison so you get no clue as to why folders are in a mess. The
GUI is
> > generally inadequate in distinguishing between folder as content an
d fold
> er
> > as container of children.
> >
> > Enjoy.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Ed Willink
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ptolemy-admin at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu
> > [mailto:ptolemy-admin at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jia Zou
> > Sent: 09 June 2008 20:46
> > To: Jackie Man-Kit Leung
> > Cc: kepler-dev at ecoinformatics.org; ptdevel at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu;
> > Christopher Brooks
> > Subject: Re: [Ptolemy] Conversion of Ptolemy II Tree to SVN this we
ek
> >
> > Hi Christopher, Jackie, and others,
> > From what I heard here at IBM, where Subclipse is widely used, ther
e are
> > many subtle functionalities Subclipse does not implement correctly,
and t
> hus
> > many researchers here use command line to run subversion instead of
> > Subclipse.
> > So could you post a tutorial on how we can run subversion both on e
clipse
> > and command line?
> > I didn't hear anything about Subversive.
> >
> > Jia
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Jackie Man-Kit Leung <jleung at berkel
ey.edu
> >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Is the conversion "backward compatible"? Would the old cvs clients
still
> >> work? or do we need to upgrade to svn client..... If so, there are
two
> >> eclipse svn client plugin: Subclipse and Subversive. Which one do
we
> >> recommend? The two seem to be very similar, in terms of licensing,
> >> maturity.....Does anyone know which is better, functionality-wise?
> >>
> >> ~mankit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Brooks"
> >> <cxh at eecs.berkeley.edu>
> >> To: <kepler-dev at ecoinformatics.org>; <ptdevel at chess.eecs.berkeley.
edu>
> >> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:31 AM
> >> Subject: [Ptolemy] Conversion of Ptolemy II Tree to SVN this week
> >>
> >>
> >>> I'm thinking about converting the Ptolemy II cvs repository to
> >>> subversion this week.
> >>>
> >>> To do this, what I would do is:
> >>> 1) Update the Eclipse installation instructions
> >>> 2) Disable the ptII cvs repository
> >>> 3) Convert the ptII cvs repository to svn, which would take a few
> >>> hours
> >>>
> >>> I'm thinking of doing this on Wednesday.
> >>>
> >>> Any comments, questions or concerns?
> >>>
> >>> _Christopher
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ptolemy maillist - Ptolemy at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu
> >>> http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptolemy/listinfo/ptolemy
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ptolemy maillist - Ptolemy at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu
> >> http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptolemy/listinfo/ptolemy
> >
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> --------
> _______________________________________________
> Ptolemy maillist - Ptolemy at chess.eecs.berkeley.edu
> http://chess.eecs.berkeley.edu/ptolemy/listinfo/ptolemy
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tfeng at eecs.berkeley.edu
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