[seek-kr-sms] OBOE discussion: Ferdinand's version

Joshua Madin madin at nceas.ucsb.edu
Wed Jul 26 14:15:34 PDT 2006


Sergey.  I've attached the last picture I drew of what OBOE looks  
like.  There may be some differences between it and the OWL file I  
just committed.  Shawn and I spent some time discussing the  
MeasurementSpace-like idea that Ferdinando gets at.  I'm looking  
forward to your and Ferdinando's comments.

Thanks,
Josh



On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Serguei Krivov wrote:

> Shawn,
>
> It would be nice to give Ferdinando a chance to defend his version  
> against our criticism (after tomorrow morning hi will be  
> unavailable for comments).
>
> We were discussing the question “can a measurement be considered  
> as a kind of observation”, where I do agree with Ferdinando and  
> you don’t. For convenience I paste my last unanswered message  
> below. In that message I missed an important argument of yours  
> that “sometime we can talk about measurement even without  
> mentioning any related observation”. If this is your argument,  
> then it is argument against the current version of OBOE, rather  
> then against Ferdinand’s version. In the current version every  
> measurement is connected to exactly one observation via the  
> property isMeasuredCharacteristicOf and therefore the situation you  
> mention is not allowed to exist  (should we  set cardinality  [0,1]  
> for properties hasSubject and isMeasurableCharacteristicOf, we may  
> cover the case you mentioned). In Ferdinand’s version Observation  
> is defined as a general category and calling a measurement  
> “observation” is a matter of naming convention which is a bit  
> different from the convention you use when you assert that “we can  
> talk about measurement without mentioning related observation”.  
> Within Ferdinand’s ontology it is  your assertion, which is   
> invalid- just by definition. I do not see any inconsistencies  
> between this definition and acceptable usage of the two words in  
> English. Setting cardinality [0,1] on property hasSubject ( of  
> Observation) will allow to talk about the measurements that have no  
> subject- the situation of which you were concerned.  What else?
>
>
> As I mentioned,  I believe that Entities and Traits/Characteristic  
> should be reintroduced to Ferdinand’s version and what currently  
> is Observable should become Characteristic. (I do not understand  
> how entity per se could be observable, but this is the question for  
> the current version)
>
>
> I think that the idea of CompoundObservation and AtomicObservation  
> provides much more natural better mechanism  for characterizing  
> relation between the columns of the table than what we have in the  
> current version . ( I do not ask anymore about characterizing  
> relation between the rows. Let spatial and temporal context do this  
> job as many of you agree)
>
>
> I also like the idea of ObservationSpace. This neatly generalizes  
> numeric measurements and qualitative observation, such as color of  
> something, state of health etc. The problem of correct description  
> of numeric measurement versus nominal observations  was surfaced in  
> the messages of Matt, Bob Morris and Jessy.  I think that the  
> current version of OBOE has much bias towards numeric measurement,  
> while Ferdinand’s version has a reasonable generic framework to  
> deal with both.
>
>
> Most likely you disagree with most of these points. If you could  
> explain in some details why you disagree (when it is the case)  
> before tomorrow , then perhaps Ferdinando will have chance to reply  
> on your critics.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sergey
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> Sergey  Krivov, Research Assist.  Professor,
>
> Computer Science Dept. & Gund Inst. for Ecological Economics,
>
> University of Vermont; 617 Main St. Burlington VT 05405
>
> phone: (802) 656 0380
>
> From: seek-kr-sms-bounces at ecoinformatics.org [mailto:seek-kr-sms- 
> bounces at ecoinformatics.org] On Behalf Of Serguei Krivov
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:58 PM
> To: 'Shawn Bowers'
> Cc: seek-kr-sms at ecoinformatics.org
> Subject: Re: [seek-kr-sms] OBOE discussion: current version
>
>
> > I am a bit confused here -- and maybe Josh, you can clarify.  My
>
> > impression is that OBOE isn't currently changing in this way.
>
>
> Shawn,
>
> One of the problem discussed yesterday was how to capture both  
> normal measurements and nominal ones. Obviously the current version  
> of OBOE has bias towards normal measurements and it is not clear if  
> it would deal satisfactory with the nominal measures, that is - 
> classifications. The majority who wrote on the subject consider  
> those qualitative observation as important and worth of our  
> attention. Josh was trying to sum up the yesterday discussion in  
> one way and I thought that the summary he made is worth of  
> discussing.   I failed to underscore the word "proposed" while  
> talking about Josh's summary. I apologize.
>
>
> > > So we have to remove attributes (roles, properties) measurement 
> (0:n),
>
> > > count(0,n) classification (0,1) from Observation.  
> Alternatively, we may
>
> > > refuse the idea of having Observation as superclass of  
> Classification,
>
> > Count
>
> > > and Measurement.
>
> >
>
> > I wouldn't say "refuse" the idea -- I would say that modeling  
> measurement
>
> > (and its various types) as observations has some problems --
>
>
> So far I do not see what those problems are (besides those that I  
> have mentioned myself).
>
>
> I think the reason to
>
> > distinguish measurement and observation is because they are actually
>
> > different things.  In the general setting, one can have observations
>
> > independently of measurements, and measurements independently of
>
> > observation -- suggesting these are fundamently different entities.
>
>
> I wish we were living in a Plato's world , where concepts have real  
> existence. In such world all ontologies would exist in the same  
> manner as physical object exist and our job would be just to record  
> them on paper the way we do it with biomass, color etc. I think  
> that Scholastics did believe in this nice reality, but positivists  
> came   and spoiled everything...
>
>
> I think there is nothing that makes observation and measurement  
> fundamentally different, at least in this world. For a moment I  
> thought that may be I am the only one who think so. Then I typed in  
> Google " define: measurement" and I see many definitions; and some  
> of them at the middle/bottom of the page look as:
>
>
> --An observation that reduces the amount of uncertainty about the  
> value of a quantity. In the balanced scorecard, measurements are  
> collected for feedback....
>
>
> -- A logical rule for assigning numbers to observations to  
> represent the quantity of a trait of characteristic possessed
>
>
> So, there are other people who confuse observation and measurement  
> in some way. But still, it would be nice we all  vote on the question:
>
>
> Is it linguistically correct to consider  Measurement  as a kind of  
> Observation?
>
>
> Also   most of the definitions of measurement  given on that page  
> consider measurement to be quantitative, that is assigning numbers… 
> We need to deal with qualities as well, and packing those  
> qualitative observation inside framework of measurement with a  
> special unit is a big stretch. (My understanding that here Matt  
> agreed with Ferdinando) Obviously, observing sex of an individual  
> {male ,female} does not remotely resemble measurement. So, how do  
> we then incorporate those qualitative (nominal) classifications  
> into OBOE.
>
>
> As Josh’s summary clearly demonstrates, Measurement, Count and  
> Classification have common attributes. So, why do not we have a  
> common superclass for them.   If it is not Observation or  
> AtomicObservation, then what it can be?
>
>
> -sergey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Also, we need to be very careful about talking about data  
> structure when
>
> > we talk about oboe.  Not all day is tabular -- and so it is a  
> mistake to
>
> > design oboe to only work with data formatted this way.
>
> >
>
> > -shawn
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > In the pdf files, where Josh explicatde examples given
>
> > > by Matt and Mark the attribute C (which, as  Shawn  explained  
> to me
>
> > means
>
> > > hasMeasuredCharacteristic)  was used to create n-ary relations.  
> If we
>
> > refuse
>
> > > measurement(0:n), count(0,n) classification (0,1), then we have to
>
> > refuse
>
> > > hasMeasuredCharacteristic too. If we don't, then Classification  
> and
>
> > Count
>
> > > and Measurement will inherit this attribute and we again land  
> in the
>
> > same
>
> > > mess. So how do we now create n-ary relation? In Ferdinando's  
> proposal
>
> > > Observation can be CompoundObservation and AtomicObservation.  
> Later on
>
> > > Ferdinando took back idea of CompoundObservation, but then what  
> do we
>
> > have
>
> > > instead, may be we just need a better name?
>
> > >
>
> > > 4. Personally I like the idea of how Ferdinando's proposal takles
>
> > dichotomi
>
> > > between complex (compound) observations and the other things  
> such as
>
> > Count,
>
> > > Measurement and Classification. I like his idea of  
> ObservationSpace.
>
> > What I
>
> > > do not like is that Observables can be both Entities and
>
> > Characteristics.  I
>
> > > think this is an overkill: Entity (thing, object) and  
> Characteristic
>
> > > (property)  are two fundamental phylosophical categories. Further
>
> > > generalisation over fundamental phylosophical categories  
> warants a big
>
> > mess
>
> > > and missunderstanding.  I will gaet back later with my comments on
>
> > > Ferdinando's proposal
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >   _____
>
> > >
>
> > > From: seek-kr-sms-bounces at ecoinformatics.org
>
> > > [mailto:seek-kr-sms-bounces at ecoinformatics.org] On Behalf Of  
> Joshua
>
> > Madin
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:57 PM
>
> > > To: seek-kr-sms at ecoinformatics.org
>
> > > Subject: Re: [seek-kr-sms] OBOE discussion: current version
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Based on the comments this morning I have redrawn the core of  
> oboe for
>
> > > discussion (attached pdf). It seems to me that the unit-at-all- 
> cost
>
> > > framework will greatly simplify what we are trying to deliver for
>
> > improving
>
> > > data integration, but, as Ferdinando said, this framework will  
> be hard
>
> > to
>
> > > justify and may cause problems down the line. In the attached  
> ontology,
>
> > I've
>
> > > tried to divide the different notions of "measurement". All  
> this does is
>
> > > restrict the properties that can be used on different types of
>
> > observation.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > I've also included "hasProcedure" as a properties that acts on
>
> > Observations.
>
> > > This can also act on Measurements due the the subsumption  
> hierarchy
>
> > shown in
>
> > > Figure A. I think that this is what Ferdinando meant, but I'm  
> not sure.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Cheers. BTW: I just received new emails from Ferdinado and Matt  
> -- but
>
> > I'll
>
> > > send this anyway.
>
> > >
>
> > > Josh
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >1. Observable is either Entity or Characteristic (at the moment).
>
> > > Characteristic has only one subclass Dimension, which defines  
> the set of
>
> > > base quantities such as length, weight, etc. , Dimension  
> includes only
>
> > > things measured in quantities. Thus at the moment we are missing
>
> > > specification for observations of such characteristics as  
> color, smell,
>
> > > taste or anything which is measured in qualitative scale.
>
> > >
>
> > > This is a question that has come up a lot recently and really  
> needs to
>
> > be
>
> > > confronted with some good examples. The idea was that nominal
>
> > measurements
>
> > > would just be given unit "name" and a characteristic, such as  
> "red".
>
> > This
>
> > > would mean having these characteristics in an extension  
> ontology such as
>
> > a
>
> > > "classifiation ontology" (which would plug into OBOE's  
> charactersitic).
>
> > >
>
> > > I don't think this is right. Simply, the values of that  
> observation come
>
> > > from a finite set of color classes (or instances). Not a  
> measurement, if
>
> > we
>
> > > define measurement as comparison with a reference unit (meter  
> of tree)
>
> > using
>
> > > an abstract unit for the dimension (meter for length).It is  
> ameasurement
>
> > if
>
> > > we define measurement to encompass assigning a class to an  
> observable in
>
> > a
>
> > > context as the result of measuring it. I'd rather call it a
>
> > > "Classification", subclass of Observation and siblings of  
> Measurement.
>
> > And
>
> > > we could have "Ranking" as subclass of Classification, where  
> classes
>
> > must
>
> > > have an ordinal relationship. But stretching the definitionto  
> make it
>
> > fit in
>
> > > the unit-at-all-costs framework and giving the characteristic  
> the role
>
> > of
>
> > > subsetting the value space doesn't sound right at all. This was  
> the
>
> > thought
>
> > > behind proposing an explicit value space.
>
> > >
>
> > > Ordinal measurements may not be as easy to deal with. It might  
> work in
>
> > the
>
> > > same way as above, but use the unit "rank". However, the ordinal
>
> > ontology
>
> > > would need to contain constructs that deal with "direction" or
>
> > "magnitude".
>
> > > For example, "high" is distinct from and of greater magnitude than
>
> > "low".
>
> > > This ontology would have to be able to deal with arbitrary  
> numbers of
>
> > > levels, similar to the way we dealt with Observation in OBOE  
> for coping
>
> > with
>
> > > experimental design. The idea was to remove these kind of  
> things (i.e.,
>
> > > characteristics) from the core ontology because the way that  
> people want
>
> > to
>
> > > use them are so variable.
>
> > >
>
> > > Similar concerns,plus one:I don't think the ordinal  
> relationshipbetween
>
> > > classes such as {high,medium, low} has much of a chance to be  
> captured
>
> > in
>
> > > OWL. Nor I think it should be, as you don't do much with it in  
> workflows
>
> > > unless it'sa realnumeric scale (whose ordinal properties are  
> also not
>
> > > expressed in OWL, so why bother?).If really necessary, we  
> couldmake
>
> > > suchclassificationhierarchies subclasses of"Rank" and use
>
> > anumericproperty
>
> > > for ordering suchvalues, but all the logic necessary to do  
> anythingwith
>
> > it
>
> > > remains outside OBOE.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Our definition, if I remember correctly, was :Observation is a
>
> > statementthat
>
> > > an Observable has been observed. I think more than this is  
> going to
>
> > > colorOBOEwith restrictions it does not need to have.By the  
> way,we model
>
> > the
>
> > > result of the observation, not the process of the observation,  
> and the
>
> > > result is not an event.To annotate a dataset we don't need to know
>
> > anything
>
> > > about the measurement except its results.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
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